Episode #18 Today it is my pleasure to introduce to you Richard Taylor, Professor,  Physics Department Head at University of Oregon. His interests are: Nanoelectronics, retinal implants, solar cells, and the visual science of fractals.  Richard Taylor specializes in experimental condensed matter and biophysics. He is the Director of Fractals Research and head of the Fractals Research Laboratory at the University of Oregon.

Richard Taylor has worked in the USA, UK, Canada, Japan, Australia, Sweden, and New Zealand, and has published more than 300 papers. This includes 11 papers in the journal Nature and 3 in journal Science. In addition to his career in science, Richard Taylor is a trained painter and photographer.

Richard Taylor adopts an interdisciplinary approach to studying natural patterns called fractals. He has studied fractals in physics, psychology, physiology, geography, architecture and art.

His work has been featured in TV documentaries, including The Art of Science (ABC), Hunting the Hidden Dimension (PBS) and The Code (BBC) and has been the subject of popular press articles (e.g. in The New York Times and The London Times), magazine articles (e.g. in Scientific American, Time, The New Yorker, New Scientist and Discover) and in ten popular science books.

He regularly gives lectures around the world, invited by organizations as diverse as the Nobel Foundation, the White House, the Royal Society and national art galleries such as the Pompidou Centre and the Guggenheim Museum.

Welcome Richard Taylor.

• Richard Taylor would you please start by telling us your story in the arts and sciences?

It is a long and winding story. For me all my passions started when I was a little 9 year old I started to get enthralled with the patterns in nature. They look very messy, whether you are looking at a cloud, tree or a mountain. But there is something very appealing about them as well. We all know that we love nature, but for me as a little kid is was: “why is it exactly that we love nature so much?”

That took in a long winding process for me that took in physics, psychology, and arts. All my career has been based on this, and trying to understand that when we say nature has got a pattern, what exactly do we mean by that?  

• What are fractals?

It’s a weird name for something that is very simple. So a fractal pattern, is simply a pattern that repeats at different sized scales. Although it is simple, nature uses it a lot. Examples of fractals are clouds in the sky, trees, and mountains. So it you take for example a tree and stand a long way from it, you will see a sort of rough pattern created by the trunk and the branches coming off. And if you walk closer, and zoom in on one of those branches, you’ll see that smaller branches come off those larger branches. And then look closely at those smaller branches, and you’ll see that twigs come off those smaller branches. So patterns are repeating at different magnifications as you look closer and closer to the tree. And that is all that a fractal is: a pattern that repeats at different magnifications.

• How do fractals fit with stress?

So although it is a simple idea, like a say nature uses it a lot – so clouds, mountains, rivers, coastlines, even lightening, are all fractal. I have been working with psychologists and we have been investigating what is the impact on you when you look at these fractal patterns. For millions of years, we have been absolutely surrounded by fractals so it is not surprising that our human eye has evolved to accommodate them.  We have got this model that we call “fractal fluency” and what it purposes is that your eye has become fluent in the visual language of fractals. In other words, our eyes have actually evolved to look at these patterns. So when we do so, when we walk outside in nature and we stare at these fractals, it is like the visual system kind of wakes up and says “hey this is what I am meant to look at.”

This opens up a floodgate of emotions and stress reduction. So when you look at one of nature’s fractal patterns, it actually reduces your stress levels by up to 60%. And this floods all the way through your body, so your whole body relaxes by that amount.

• Our demographic is interested in macular degeneration in the eyes, would you talk about that please?

I work on vision and if we go back through the evolutionary process, all that our eyes were meant to be was sort of motion detectors. Our ancestors were just concerned with whether things moved or not. And then through evolution we have this remarkable and beautiful system. One of the problems is that we start to take it for granted. We only start to often appreciate it, when we start to lose it. And I should mention that about 1 in 4 of us will actually get macular degeneration during our life time. And that will be a slow decline in our vision. And so when I heard about this, I thought that you know, losing vision is something that happens to somebody else, but when I realized how prevalent it was , that is when I thought surely science can be used to address this problem.

What macular  degeneration is a disease of the screen at the back of your eye called the retina. So my group is developing electronic chips that can go in and replace those damaged regions. The hardest part of that is developing the electronics that can effectively communicate with our body. So that is what our research is concentrating on.

The connection with fractals is that the wiring in your body, what we call the neurons  are fractal. They are very much like small versions of trees where the wiring actually branches out to connect to other neurons. So we are trying to investigate the body’s natural fractal wiring and replicate that in our eyes artificial wiring – so that when we bring the two together, our artificial implant interfaces with your body’s wiring. This is sort of effortless communication between the two because they both share the same fractal shapes.

• What techniques are you using to measure in your labs?

It is as massive interdisciplinary challenge. We put this thing into your body, it is almost like a solar panel being put into the back of your eye. It has to work efficiently, because it has to be self powered. So all of the light that is coming in powers the device. And it is also got to be clean. So we can’t put something into the body that will be toxic. There is a lot of chemistry, physics, biology, neuroscience, and a lot of cognitive psychology as well. So when we say one lab, it is a whole set of labs working on different aspects of this device. It will only be as strong as it’s weakest link so we have to make sure that it works perfectly in every way.

• Can you talk about the artist Jackson Pollock?

This goes back to being a nine year old. I was interested in natures patterns regardless of what discipline you study it from.I thought that artists as well as scientists should be interested in nature’s patterns. So from an early age, I was interested in this painter Jackson Pollock. He was around in the 1940s and 1950s and had a very revolutionary way of painting. He used to roll his canvases out on the floor, and then pour paint often directly from a can , and create these mesmerizing webs of paint. Similar to what I was that I was always fascinated to know what the underlying pattern of nature was, the same thing seemed to me to applyto Jackson Pollock’s work because people would refer to his work as being organic and natural. But I never really beyond that or said well “what pattern is that?” And then in my scientific career I developed all of these computer analysis tools to actually assess nature’s patterns – things like trees and clouds – I was so intrigued by Pollock’s work, I thought well why don’t I actually apply that same computer analysis to Pollock’s work. We found when we did that, that Pollock’s work was just as fractal and nature’s scenery. So Pollock was remarkable in that he had somehow managed to recognize nature’s fractals and then come up with this new dynamic process that would generate all these fractals on these big canvases. So when people say that they are looking at Pollock’s painting and it is generating a kind of resonance, that is actually picking up the attraction we have for natural patterns. So it is triggering the same affect as if you are looking out through a window on to nature.

You are actually the authority on Jackson Pollock’s work. How much are his paintings worth?

It is staggering. His paintings now are among the most expensive. His paintings can be valued up to 600 million dollars. He didn’t see any of that money. He actually died relatively poor. Since his death in 1966, the paintings have become more and more expensive so most are now in national galleries.

And you check them out to make sure they are authentic?

Yes with that sort of money, it is almost like the American dream to find one of these paintings in an attic or a yard sale. So there are lots of examples, if you go back to Pollock, a lot of people saw his technique and thought oh, that would actually be fun for me to paint a similar sort of painting. So when Pollock became famous, this ushered in a whole set of people who were just having fun and imitated his work. The challenge today is that those paintings are still in existence, so to separate out the authentic Pollock’s from the imitations. There are at least 400 imitations circulating around the United States at the moment. The imitations can’t quite generate the same fractal signatures that the authentic Pollock’s can. So we these computer analysis techniques to separate out the imitations from the real paintings.

You actually say that Pollock actually discovered fractals before Mandelbrot and math did?

This show though, and is not uncommon that science is very quick to claim discoveries and often artists have got there before hand. And certainly that is true of fractal patterns. The big discoveries for fractals were in the 1970s, but artists were painting and drawing fractals well before that. That had a sort of intuitive understanding of fractals. And that kind of gets back to the fractal fluency idea – that when we stare out at nature, that aesthetic feeling that we get is all at a subconscious level so that we don’t have to think about these things. And that applies to artists as well. So they can appreciate fractals without knowing exactly how they work. Even going back to Leonardo DeVinci in some of his sketches in turbulence in water, he was capturing fractal aesthetics on his piece of paper well before the science came along. And you can see that in many different cultures, countries, and continents. Artists were creating these fractal art works before scientists understood them.

• Now you have talked about art and science, are there any other projects are you working on?

Well you know it is an amazing thing, but when you think of something as intrinsic to nature, how relevant it is to many different disciplines. And I think some people are surprised that I am working in physics and psychology and art. And they think well how can you work in all these different things but in fact I am only working on one thing which is these fractal patterns. It is just that it applies to many different things. So another big project that I am very excited about is fractals in athletics because when people for example run, it looks a very straightforward motion, but people exhibit these little variations in their stride length and things. And that triggers little fractal motions that we are very much unaware of. We are developing sensors for athletes to wear. So when you monitor these motions they change when an injury is about to occur. So these little sensors will serve as alerts so that when runners are running and the fractal patterns of their running changes, this will send an alert that they really need to rest rather than carrying on running and getting injured.

Wow and that would be in our own power to look at that.

Yes and it applies to walking as well. I am in my late 50s and I am not running as much now. But walking is really good for your health and these sensors would determine whether you are walking with a form that is not going to instill any injuries down the road. That will allow you to keep on walking for longer.

What a fantastic injury prevention tool. Very exciting.

Yes things have changed we are in this crazy modern era of electronics monitoring us. One good thing about this era are things like these retinal implants will allow us to live longer and more healthy lives.

What do you do to become inspired?

Well my research is very close to my interests. I love nature and I love running so I spend a lot of time going for runs around the Oregon Forest. It really is good for you. This fractal fluency model shows that nature reduces our stress by up to 60%. I think in future eras people will look back and think that it was bizarre that we spent so much time inside because our eyes are meant to be staring at these beautiful fractal patterns. So we are sitting in a room looking at four walls, no matter how beautiful that room is, our eyes are not meant to be looking at those sorts of patterns. They are meant to be looking out at nature. When you look out at nature it does trigger all these very positive effects. It all occurs very quickly at a subconscious level. When you look out at nature on the millisecond level it triggers all of these favorable properties starting with stress reduction. It also restores your mind from mental fatigue as well. So you know when you read a book, that level of concentration wears you out, but when you stare out a window out at nature, that restores that mental fatigue. So nature really is our friend.

So that is your big tip for us

Yes, and it is free. All you have to do is walk out there and it will give you the stress reduction for free.

I even think that you said that we can just walk by a window to get the benefits of fractals.

That’s right. Our eyes really are thirsty for these patterns. It is not that you have to stare at them with an obsession. Just a fleeting glimpse is enough to trigger all of these favorable properties.

A major part of my work is to work with designers because not always can you walk out through a wood, or through the forest or through the mountains. So we are designing fractals that can be put inside buildings whether it is for schools or universities or airports or hospitals – so that when you are inside you can also benefit from these fractal stress reducing properties.

That is fantastic. I think I saw on one of your Ted talks that when your wife was out you painted the door of your fridge.

Yes my wife was not to happy about that at the time. I think people are too precious about what they think about art and think oh I have to be a fantastic artist to paint. But actually  most people are very good at painting and find it enjoyable. So certainly I know that when I retire I will spend a lot more time painting and you can probably guess that I will be painting fractals.

Since reading your work, I now see fractals everywhere – even in my carpet. They are everywhere right?

They are and I have spent 20 years researching with psychology labs which fractal patterns we like the most. And I thought it is just crazy that I am just publishing this work in academic journals, I should just go out there and create some things that people can use. So last year we collaborated with a flooring manufacturer called Mohawk and they released fractal carpets and they are doing really well. They are designed for big open spaces like airports. So you are trying to catch an airplane and you are stressed, then hopefully those fractals will relax you or you are waiting in a hospital. So with these carpets on the ground it will actually reduce your stress levels.

• Is there anything that you wished I would have asked?

No I think that life is there for living and if you keep yourself healthy and you go out there and enjoy nature – then nature will look after you and give you all of these health benefits.

I think you have a philosophy that you talk to your students about but it could fit with any age group?

Oh I don’t remember. But too many people spend time doing what other people have told them to do. But I think there is a huge value in following your own dreams and in particular following your own interests. Certainly that kind of philosophy has looked after me in life. I think maybe when I started off my career and I was jumping between different ideas I think people thought maybe I was a little unusual. But actually most people do have more than one interest in life and I think you owe it to yourself to pursue all of your interests. And so that is what I have done and I have certainly been very lucky and have enjoyed it.

• These are the ways to find you that I have at the University of Oregon and on you tube.

rpt@uoregon.edu

http://blogs.uoregon.edu/richardtaylor/2016/02/08/fractal-retinal-implants/

On You Tube:

Ted talks Creativity Across the Arts and Sciences

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCo8JBk-3lQ

Restoring Vision Using Fractal Bionic Eyes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptHQ2xEszvs

Are those the ways  to follow your work?

 Yes I am in the Physics department at University of Oregon so if you type that into some sort of search then I will pop up. And if anyone has any questions about my work just  fire off an  email me and I will be delighted to hear from you.

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Listeners thank you for listening to the end. Please subscribe, rate, review and share this podcast episode. For my transcription of the interview please go to my website Treesmendus.com. And please check out my book and workbook Take Back Your Outside Mindset: Live Longer, Prevent Dementia, and Control Your Chronic Illness.

So listeners, next time you look or go outside, let Richard Taylor’s work remind you that when you are looking at natural branch patterns, you are experiencing fractal fluency and triggering your stress reducing mechanism. So thank your eyes photo receptors (your own solar panels)  for that calming sensation that you get from being in nature.  And this is a good thing because if you ask me, we all need a little more of Your Outside Mindset.