Podcast Episode #14

Visit Joan Maloof at oldgrowthforest.net
Joan’s book Nature’s Temples and my book and workbook Take Back Your Outside Mindset: Live Longer, Prevent Dementia, and Control Your Chronic Illness. 

Joan please us what led you to your old growth  forest projects? 

I always loved plants and felt that connection to nature.

As a toddler I would look for four leaf clovers, and then as time went on the plants I was interested in got larger  and larger. Later on I got interested in the trees and especially the trees that were growing wild in the forest.

 

Let’s talk about what an old growth forest is, and how this fits with  the  raging forest fires in Oregon and Washington as we speak.

 

Yes if you think of the planet earth, at least  a third of it is  covered in forest. With this forest certain places do well naturally  with enough rainfall and enough soil – those forests don’t need to be managed in any way. In fact if you look at the  forest with the biggest trees – I was just in Sequoia National Park – those are the forests that are not touched by humans. That would be what I am calling an old growth forest. Some people used to call them virgin forests, or primary forests, but they are just a wild forest. These forests have had no disturbance from humans. Now that does not mean that they have not had any disturbance. They could have tornadoes, ice storms, and  fires  coming through. But some of those forests that have  escaped those things have existed for many hundreds of years or thousands of years,  and that is an old growth forest.  Or if one of these forests was disturbed even by humans, many hundreds of years ago, and has grown back naturally, we also call  those old growth forests.

 

How that relates to the fires…is that the old growth forests tend to be very damp places, now this is a generalization but they tend to be much damper than a forest which has been cut. This is because you have many layers in the tree canopy, mosses, thick soils, and that moisture in the forest prevents those intense fires. Also the older trees have much thicker bark. So even if a fire does come through, the tree is more likely to survive it.

 

But what happens where we have cut those old growth forests, and have been planted or we let those trees grow back, those trees are a lot closer together. And naturally as a forest lives, those forests will thin themselves out, and some will die… then you have what we call “dog hair.” Those trees are so small and so close together, and those fires can burn very quickly and intensely. So when we think of the tree plantations, those commercially logged lands, that is where the forests get much hotter. Hotter fires can spread faster through the homes…So when we hear forest fires, some people imagine this fire and the whole forest burns down. That is not usually what happens. A fire moves through often starting on the ground, and hot enough to burn through some small things on the ground but not hot enough to burn through the bark. Then it might hit one of these plantations, where the trees are very young or thinned out, and it is drier. Then the flames will get much larger. Especially if there are dry conditions and a wind, the fire can get so hot that it can burn even the wild old growth forest. So it is very complex. If you look at a landscape where a fire has come through, it is not all even. There will be pockets where the fire was intense, and pockets where the fire has hardly burned at all… and the forest is going to recover very quickly.

 

Yes in your book, Nature’s Temples you say that when the tree canopy is gone, this allows more sunlight in, and this dries out the soil.

 

Yes it is interesting because the forestry industry might say “see we need to cut these trees because they are producing fires.” But no, if anything we need to let these forests grow, recover, and get  older.

And another thing we need to consider is that a lot of these forests are caused by human action. They are not natural fires which is one of the reasons  we are having a lot more fires than we used to. So it is really 1) climate conditions, meaning dry windy weather, and that 2) coupled with accidental  ignition – even if it is wires going down  3) the houses that we have built. Those houses burn much faster than a forest for the most part because we have flammable things like propane tanks, lattice work in our landscape, and flammable furnishings.  So in some cases you will see like what just happened in Boulder Creek, California where the forest is going to be fine but the houses in the forest have mostly burned. So it is complex. If you don’t understand it, you just have this picture of trees on fire and everything burning down.

 

When some people say we need to manage our forests or rake our forests to be healthy, you say?

 

I say no, that does not make sense to me at all. I have been to so many old growth forests and I see how they function. I see how beautiful they are and how long they have escaped flames. Part of the structure of an old growth forest makes it so rich in biodiversity, is these trees that have gotten so large and old. They have reached the end of their live span and have fallen over. Now we call that “woody debris” and these fallen trees are like sponges. You can put your finger in them, they are damp, holding the moisture, the fungi are growing on them, the insects are finding  places to live. These insects tunnel in the wood, and there are places for amphibians to live and there is so much life in those downed logs. 

 

In our healthiest forest, our untouched forests, you are going to find downed logs. And no they should not be cleared away. If you do that, you have lost half od the species that would otherwise live in the forest.

 

How else would we recognize if we are walking in an old growth forest Joan?

 

Again, they are all so different. If you are up at the timberline, the trees are not going to be huge.  If you are in a lower lying area and you see tree larger than you usually see, that is one indication.

 

Look for the woody debris as I mentioned, the downed logs, and you look for a certain canopy type in the trees. So the tree tops, instead of having a bunch of small branches sticking out there, they will have fewer branches that are much thicker. They call them “stag horns” because if you use your imagination they could look like elk horns or something… the way they are thicker.

 

The forest floor will be more irregular because some of the trees that have blown over have created a “tip up mound.” So those are some of the things to look for but then you can use your ears to hear unusual bird song, that is another way. And personally I always find the old growth forests to be most beautiful.  So if you get to a place and say “what a beautiful forest—it is likely to be an old growth forest.”

 

I had not heard the word “tip up mounds” but that is when a tree falls over and the roots are sticking up high in the air right?

 

That is right and this adds to biodiversity because the tree leaves that pile of soil where the roots once where, and it leaves that dip in the ground where all that soil got pulled out by the roots. Then you have created a place where things that need high and dry place to germinate like the yellow birch trees. And then that low dip, which may catch water, you have place where dragon flies or frogs, or salamanders like to live. But if you keep your forest very young and cut it every 50 years, you are not going to have the tip up mounds. And you lose the biodiversity.

 

In your book Nature’s Temples I learned another fun word “snags.” What are those Joan?

 

Yes, thank you for reminding me. Snags are another indicator of old growth forests. A snag is a standing dead tree. If you have dead tree with a 3 inch diameter trunk, it is not going to be habitat for many organisms, but if you have a 200 year old tree, that is dead and standing, it is going to have hollow cavities and spaces in it. That tree is going to be very important for other animals to nest in like flying squirrels. That creates biodiversity.

 

I highlighted in your book about old growth trees having the shape of candelabras. We have trees in our forests like that – one on our cross country ski trails that we call the 3 sisters. And in your book is so good. I love what you say “ dead in old forests is like a villa in France for beetles.”

 

Yes back to our snags that fall in the forest there can be 50 different types of species in that old log. They are tunnelling around and create spaces where other organisms can hide. They are very important for the life o the forest.

 

In  Nature’s Temples you tell us about the roles of Insects, Mosses, Liverworts, and Trees. Grey green round splash with edges that lift up and is a bit dry to  touch is one of the larger lichens. Mustard yellow – or if emerald green is a moss or lungwort. And then we have mosses that hang from the branches of the trees. Will you talk us about Lichens so we can notice these?

 

That book Nature’s Templates I wrote because I kept hearing that a forest had  to be managed to be healthy. I wondered about that. So I did a little research and look at scientific papers where any scientist has compared managed forest to an old growth forest. For example one of the scientists studied these tiny little snails on the forest floor. What he found that there were so many more snail species in the old growth forest. Some species were only found in the old growth forest. Then there were papers by scientists who studied insects, and they found insect species only found in the old growth forests. A lot more biodiversity. And the same with birds. So many more birds in the old growth forests, especially cavity nesters. So more snags, more insects, for the birds.

 

Everything I looked at from fungi… and then the lichens that you mentioned. There are the big lichens that look like paint splashes – these beautiful mandela like circles. There are more lichen species in the unmanaged forest. And especially these tiny ones that are almost microscopic. They are calicioid lichens. In an old growth, uncut forest you will have up to 21 different species. In a young managed forest you may only find 2 or 3 species of lichens.

 

So we know there is more biodiversity  and because of tree size we know the air quality and water is much better in old growth forests. So that gave me the material to challenge that managed forests are healthier than old growth forests.

 

But I also learned ….when I started that project, I thought oh it will be so easy to tell how old a forest is if I see a certain fungi, lichen, or beetle…well no…what I learned is that you really need to be specialist in your organism to be able to identify these and to produce this data. We have this beautiful data and there are some indicator species, but they are very difficult for the average person to tell them apart.

 

 

 

 You shared in your book that  calicioid lichens tied to ancient forests protected natural area in New Brunswick from logging.

 

Yes, that was already a study site and they knew it was an old growth forest, and there happened to be a researcher in the area. But most  forests, you can  pick a study site that will not have a researcher and that forest might be cut without anybody ever knowing that those species existed there.

 

It is wonderful to notice the mosses and  lichens.

 

Yes it is wonderful to see the beauty, letting it all soak in, and seeing what you find that day. There is also quite a reward in becoming a specialist in a particular life form because we can’t know it all. If you pick one, whether it is butterflies, lichens, salamanders, or wild flowers and go deep, that can be  very rewarding. That is one of the things that I used to recommend to my students. They loved nature, they wanted to work outside, they wanted a career in it but they didn’t know how or where to do that so I would recommend that they have a study organism that would be their specialty. You are not going to learn a lot of that even in college. What you have to do is find somebody that knows a little bit more than you. Be willing to invest in some books and a microscope or whatever the tools are and just dig right in.

 

Back to the biggest trees and the smaller growth under those trees. Could you tell us a little bit about that?

 

So these forests that we are talking about are always changing. New trees are growing up and other trees are dying. Well what happens, when a bigger older tree comes down it creates a gap in the canopy to allow more sunlight to come in. In that gap you will find other plants that can grow. Orchids might grow in that spot.

 

So the forest industry might say this forest is too dense and it needs to be opened up, and let’s go in there and thin. The forest will thin itself naturally but in these small pockets that will allow the wild flowers to grow. You will more wild flower diversity in the gap than you would have in an artificially thinned forest.

 

The biggest trees draw in the most carbon right?

 

Yes so the biggest oldest trees, even though their diameter is not getting that much larger every year….those tree rings become so narrow in those old growth trees. Think of that ring of wood going all the way out this very tall stem and out to all these limbs. What we know that is that these larger trees take in much more carbon dioxide than an average timber sized tree. They are not only putting that carbon on themselves in a coat of wood but they are also sending that carbon down into the ground into their roots.

 

Their massive root systems are connected to underground fungi. The trees are actually producing sugar from the carbon dioxide that is sent down to their roots as an energetic growing medium. Around the roots some of that sugar substance is given to the fungi for their growth. The fungi can not photosynthesize. They can’t get their energy any other way. Then the fungi spread out even further. They are looking for water and minerals to bring back to the tree. So they bring back a nitrogen based compound for the tree. So this is a beautiful interrelationship underground.

 

Forty percent of that carbon that is taken in from the atmosphere goes down into the soil. So when you come in and log the forest, you are exposing that soil to the sunlight. The fungi die and that carbon get released back into the atmosphere.

 

So the bigger the tree, the deeper the soil? The older the species gets the more strains it will be associated with. So it is the mother tree that is  connected to all these other smaller trees. So these trees can share not only nutrients but chemical information with each other through the fungi underground. So it is really a web of life underground that we are barely understanding. Then there are all the tiny organisms underground that live by feeding on the fungi and the little feeder roots too. We barely know about all this. I mean I didn’t even have a chapter on that in my book because it is to unknown and so complex.

 

Humans tend to walk into a forest and go “ I think I will cut down that tree for my project.” We have a right to use the trees of course. But we think when we cut that tree down we are only affecting that tree, but we are affecting a whole web of life underneath the ground.

 

Joan how do you keep yourself from getting down hearted in the work that you do? It is must be difficult to get this information out.

 

The hardest thing I will tell you is what happened to me this past week. When a forest you are trying to save comes down. So what happened there, an ecologist I know, lives about an hour away from me said “Joan this beautiful old forest that I walk in all the time, is all marked for cutting. I said, “I want to see it” because that is how I get the courage or the energetic power to want to save a forest. It is just being in there and feeling it .. letting the forest give me that energy. I hiked through that forest. It is was so lovely. It was all the things we were talking about: the birdsong, the mosses, the lichens, a big old brook, a snapping turtle, and trees all marked. We did everything we could, tried to reach the owner, talked to the timber company, and offered to buy out the logging contract. This was private property and this person owned it and we were going to give him his money… promising it without actually raising it, but I knew I would have no trouble raising it. I just knew we could do it. He just refused and said “nobody is going to tell me what to do with my land.” Right now the trucks are out there cutting down the beautiful forest. So that is the hardest part.

 

But then for my work I also get to see a lot of beautiful forests. In a typical year, and we all know that 2020 was not a typical year, I would travel and give talks, and dedicate forests into this network we are creating called the Old Growth Forest Network. We are making sure that each county in the US has at least one forest that is preserved from logging and is relatively assessable to the public. So we are out there finding these forests, dedicating these forests, and in the process of doing that I get to visit beautiful forests. So I always say I would not be able to do this work if it were not for these forest walks. That keeps me healthy for my journeys.

 

I love how you all go out for a walk in the woods after your forest dedications.

 

It is so wonderful how joyous people get after a hike in old growth forests. We keep them fairly short maybe a mile and a half. Then people are making friends, and want to go back. I have such great memories of those people out there in the forest. If by the way anyone who is listening to this and want to know where those forests are… they are all over the US. There are 108 forests now and our website oldgrowthforests.net lists them all by state. The website gives complete directions on how to get there, where to park, and they are all open to the public.

 

You even studied the beauty in the forests, I like when you asked  question: Have you ever wondered how you would spend your time if you had absolutely no obligations?

That is right and I thought about it and said: Well in a beautiful, natural place, with people I love.

 

The beauty of nature is so important and we have no laws to protect it, we barely talk about it, and that was why it was important to me when I wrote my second book Among The Ancients where I visited one old growth forest in each of the eastern US states, and as a scientist I thought I am bound to see some patterns  right – step one of the scientific method – and every time I’d come out of the forest and  reflect on what I saw,  and what it was like, I would say …”it was just so beautiful and then I thought well maybe this is something that can be measured and a spent about a year reading everything I could find on beauty. I had never learned about beauty in school…we never discussed it..and what I learned was that the biologist all think the philosophers are talking about it.. and the philosophers gave up talking about beauty and said the biologists should do it. So I  took 100s of students out and  the  older the forest was, the more beautiful they perceived the forest to be. So that paper is called “measuring the beauty of the forest.”

 

How is the old growth forest network doing?

 

We are doing beautifully. I am so excited about it. We started 8 years ago, and there was just me. I was doing it part time and I had a non-profit board of directors, 501C3 because I knew I needed financial support. Now we have 6 employees. I have an assistant, we have somebody doing the web, somebody helping with development, and network management. We are now in 23 different states and we are producing a lot of educational materials.

 

Your website is fantastic. I have already shared your video on Old Growth Forests in my facebook group Ditch Inside for Outside. The fact sheets are great resources too. You were a prof and then you started all this.

 

How it got started was I wrote the book Teaching The Trees  just to make a case for these forests and why they should not be cut down. One of the chapters was on Old Growth Air where I wrote about visiting an Old Growth Forest near me and just breathing the air and how different I felt. It got me going on the research about what is it in the air that makes such a difference and that is where I learned about the health benefits. I learned what the Japanese were doing with wood air breathing and forest bathing. That is when it started to be popularized. And so many people after reading that book Teaching The Treeswanted to know, “where is that forest? I want  to smell that air.” That is when I realized that people did not know how to get to these forests in the east so I would have to write another book Among The Ancients tell them how to get to these forests. It was on these journeys that I realized Verla how few of these forests were left.. like 1% in the East, 5% in the West, and I am not sure what the numbers are in Canada, but it is pretty low everywhere. And it is shrinking. And I know you are still cutting old growth forests in BC.

 

It took me a few more years of teaching before I was able to retire early and start the Old Growth Forest Network.

 

How do we get started in a small way to help Old Growth Forests?

 

It is a little challenging because we are in a US based organization. Of course we can get donations from anywhere. We exist on private donations so that is very welcome and very needed. Also a lot of people come to me and say this should be worldwide but I have limited energy. This is not a small thing, but if someone would want to start an organization in Canada that would mirror what we are doing in the US that would be fabulous.

Another thing people can do, wherever they live, is to become familiar with your local forest.

 

Where is the oldest forest near you?

So visit that forest and then start asking questions about it?

Is that forest actually protected from logging? Because in so many cases people visit these old growth forests and enjoy them and think they are going to be there forever. And then they come back another day and they have been cut down. So learn about who owns that forest. See if it is protected. And if it is not, work to get it preserved.

 

 

Thank you Joan I just love what you are doing. Is there anything I didn’t ask that you wished I would have asked?

 

Thank you Verla, I have enjoyed this conversation. I love what you are doing.. sharing and showing how nature can heal us. We know that spending time in forests can reduce blood pressure, blood sugar, reduce stress levels, and boost immunity. So I just encourage people to get out there in the forest for their health and to speak out for the forests too. Thank you for doing that Verla. 

 

Listeners get Joan Maloof’s intelligent and lyrical books Nature’s Temples, The Living Forest, Teaching The Trees, and Among the Ancients.  These books will change the way you notice the complexity in the your forest. Go to oldgrowthforest.net for beautiful and free resources including fact sheets, videos locations of old growth forests in the US.  As Joan Maloof says notice the old growth forest structures in your closest forest, get curious about owns the land. Ask if this forest is protected from cutting.  Find ways to pass on Joan Maloof’s message that the less disturbed a forest is the better… the healthier it is… and the healthier you  are by spending time in your forest.   

 

Thank you for listening to the end. Please check out my book Take Back Your Outside Mindset: Live Longer, Prevent Dementia, and Control Your Chronic Illness and go to my website Treesmendus.com for more free resources and transcription notes of this podcast episode. To support this show please subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. 

 

So next time you go outside into your forest notice if it has been left alone. Look for the biggest trees, the understory around these trees, fallen trees, moss, dead trees standing with holes in them or snags as they are called, different types of lichens, tip up mounds (when trees fall over with roots up high), and trees shaped like  candelabras– all signals of an old growth or second growth forest, — that these are beautiful things, because if you ask me – we all need a little more of Your Outside Mindset.